Delta in talks for ‘up to’ 100 Max order, supposedly mostly Max10.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business- ... -sources-2

texl1649 wrote:

Delta in talks for ‘up to’ 100 Max order, supposedly mostly Max10.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business- ... -sources-2

A logical strategy it seems. Dual source policy for their huge fleet, the 737-900ER's proved very useful.

keesje wrote:

texl1649 wrote:

Delta in talks for ‘up to’ 100 Max order, supposedly mostly Max10.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business- ... -sources-2

A logical strategy it seems. Dual source policy for their huge fleet, the 737-900ER's proved very useful.

Agreed, and I guess that (a) with the 900ER fleet they have plenty of locations where takeoff performance doesn’T matter, and (b) they also would negotiate a long term benefit/ongoing discounts for parts for their huge MRO operations with both Boeing/CFM. I think, but could be wrong, that their A320NEO fleet is all pratt (as of course is the A220).

https://news.delta.com/delta-techops-co ... ance-visit

I think their CFM agreement is quite old, and I don’t think they have yet done any overhaul work on Leaps;

https://www.mrobusinesstoday.com/delta- ... l-a321ceo/

https://www.cfmaeroengines.com/press-ar ... air-lines/

keesje wrote:

texl1649 wrote:

Delta in talks for ‘up to’ 100 Max order, supposedly mostly Max10.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business- ... -sources-2

A logical strategy it seems. Dual source policy for their huge fleet, the 737-900ER's proved very useful.

Good news and I’ve always thought we would see a MAX order. But, I did think we would see a -8 or -9, not the -10 given how many A321s DL will have (have some different levels of capacity).

Building on the rumors from two years ago, its reported Delta in talks to purchase 100 737MAX-10 jets.

A deal could come as soon as next month.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/exclusi ... er-sources

=

Imo be a good pragmatic purchase. As Bastian confirmed last year, the MAX could have a place at the airline as the carrier continues review opportunities to turn over its large fleet over the next decade.

Delta continues to purchase large narrow bodies, but isn’t there also a need for new plane between the A220-300 and the A321/737-900 size?

Surprising that they're going for MAX 10s over MAX 8s, IMO, but would be a big win for the MAX.

It is a very logical step.

This is what I posted in the DL Fleet thread, but agree this topic is newsworthy enough to justify its own thread without being buried in everything else:

The MAX has never really been an "if" but more of a "when" at DL.
The timing would make sense for deliveries after 2025 when there is still room to fill out the order book.

The post-2030 320-series fleet will be approaching 250 frames (321CEO & NEO), and it makes sense to maining a ~250 frame 737 fleet (739+MAX).
Obviously the 319, 320, 738s will be retired over the next decade.

If TechOps gets an overhaul agreement, thats just another domino to fall.

With DL's future fleet requirements, orderbook backlog growing on the NEO, and perhaps the door is closing in the near future to get good deals on the MAX as global demand recovers.

This is where somebody says “of course Delta is in talks with Boeing on potential Max orders. It would be a breach of fiduciary duty on both sides if they were not having that type of discussion on a consistent basis.” So maybe it means something, maybe not.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This is what I posted in the DL Fleet thread, but agree this topic is newsworthy enough to justify its own thread without being buried in everything else:

The MAX has never really been an "if" but more of a "when" at DL.
The timing would make sense for deliveries after 2025 when there is still room to fill out the order book.

The post-2030 320-series fleet will be approaching 250 frames (321CEO & NEO), and it makes sense to maining a ~250 frame 737 fleet (739+MAX).
Obviously the 319, 320, 738s will be retired over the next decade.

If TechOps gets an overhaul agreement, thats just another domino to fall.

With DL's future fleet requirements, orderbook backlog growing on the NEO, and perhaps the door is closing in the near future to get good deals on the MAX as global demand recovers.

With the 737-800 and 319/320 on their way out maybe that will leave room for a 220-500 order

LCDFlight wrote:

This is where somebody says “of course Delta is in talks with Boeing on potential Max orders. It would be a breach of fiduciary duty on both sides if they were not having that type of discussion on a consistent basis.” So maybe it means something, maybe not.

I agree. But with a fleet of 500 narrow bodies, it makes sense to split them between two suppliers.

I just hope this is really true. This would be a sweet victory and a miracle for Boeing. It would break the Airbus walled garden that Delta has had for the past 10 years.

Totally understandable.. the MAX10 should be a fine plane for the trunk domestic routes Delta currently flies the 757 on.. If they do proceed with the MAX order, I wonder will they convert some of their A321NEOs to the XLRs.. I'm surprised they still haven't jumped on board.. They need something to replace the international 757s

This makes good sense, the rep of the 737 is it is more efficient than the A320, but has less capability. The -10 will be a great people mover for the <2,000 nm routes. Delta will still need A321's to do its NB routes that are 2,500 nm and above with a similar pax load.

There are currently two major pilot pools for Delta NB fleet, bringing in these -10's to replace older 737's retiring keeps the pool size similar. The 350 A320/A321 and 250 B737 fleets give the opportunity to select the best planes for the missions. DL bought a lot of used 737's but with the recent jump in oil prices it makes more sense to do NEO/MAX at this point.

I feel at DL that the A220 fleet is more focused on replacing the MD & 717 fleets that are going away already. Will there be an A225 vs B737-7 competition at some point, it would be an order to watch.

JayinKitsap wrote:

This makes good sense, the rep of the 737 is it is more efficient than the A320, but has less capability. The -10 will be a great people mover for the <2,000 nm routes. Delta will still need A321's to do its NB routes that are 2,500 nm and above with a similar pax load.

I think there are very few narrowbody routes in the Delta network which will require the range of an A321neo over a MAX-10. Maybe things like ATL-ANC or some of the thin transatlantic routes operated by 757s, although the MAX-10 could probably handle BOS to LIS/Ireland/U.K.

FlyingViking wrote:

With the 737-800 and 319/320 on their way out maybe that will leave room for a 220-500 order

The A220-300 replaces the A319 fairly well on a capacity basis. I'm not sure they need an A220-500 to exist if they can choose between the A320neo or MAX-8.

JayinKitsap wrote:

This makes good sense, the rep of the 737 is it is more efficient than the A320, but has less capability.

How is a 737 less capable than the A320? The most direct comparison would be a 737-800 and I’ve seen data for one of DL’s competitors that the -800 burns less fuel (737NG vs. A320CEO) while carrying more people on any length trip. That doesn’t seem less capable to me.

All those ATL-Florida trunk routes would do well on the MAX10. I was on a 75D the other day and the plane felt tired.

Hopefully it just a negotiating tactic as I would hate to see the MAX in the DL fleet as a shareholder. Way to many negatives attached to the plane with its history.

Amazing we have narrowbodies carrying the same amount as the WB 767-200 when it debuted. The math is easy to figure out.

Prost wrote:

Delta continues to purchase large narrow bodies, but isn’t there also a need for new plane between the A220-300 and the A321/737-900 size?

We would be better off if the entire fleet was 321 sized aircraft. Luckily, the 321 resources can be used on 319/320 and a 73M could be used on 738/739, but the oddball 717/220 fleets are eating up resources we do not have to spare.

But we cannot spare any aircraft right now. If the Max can come quickly, delta will bite unless Airbus counters but I bet everything delta buys moving forward is 321 sized.

What's the cockpit alerting standard that is discussed in the article? $10 Billion to comply? Wow. Does that mean that they would have to finally replace the 1960's overhead panel?

wjcandee wrote:

What's the cockpit alerting standard that is discussed in the article? $10 Billion to comply? Wow. Does that mean that they would have to finally replace the 1960's overhead panel?

Okay, I found it. https://www.regulations.gov/document/FAA-2008-1292-0030 What a goatrope. So now pilots will have to be retrained on all the revised instrumentation that's going to be in newly-certified aircraft cockpits. This was a solution without a problem to solve. As Boeing and Airbus both pointed out, not a single serious incident has ever been recorded where pilots misinterpreted the seriousness of an alert because of the color used in displaying it. To force ONE version of the Max (the -10) to have a significantly-different cockpit display paradigm than the others means pilots shouldn't be able to switch between that version and another, leading to all sorts of issues. If the airlines get a waiver that allows differences training, then the rule is CREATING potential confusion where none need exist. It's bad.

As far as DL goes, if the MAX10 has to have a different cockpit alerting scheme, then it makes sense that DL should buy only the MAX10 and no other MAX version to simplify pilot training. However, even doing that, the rule would still obviate the "limited training" needed to qualify pilots on the MAX and to permit them to fly more than one version at a time.

The obvious solution is for the FAA to get off its ass and certify the -10 now.

I tend to agree that due to a combination of DL's cost structure, pilot/staffing constraints, and growing ULCC competition - the strategy to focus the large narrowbody flying on the 180-200 seat category makes sense.

In the near to medium term, they will use the A320 & 738s until they reach the end of their usable life over the next decade, but there is not a immediate near-term need to add a sub-fleet in the 150-160 seat range.

The lower end of the fleet is going to center around the A223, in the 130 seat range which effectively replaces the 717 & A319 as they age out.

They can balance capacity between a combination of frequency & gauge adjustments across their multi-hub network.

Certain markets may see the usage of A321NEO/CEO/B739/MAX on peak frequencies, and off-peak times during the operating day or season with A220s.

If the A225 comes around, particularly if its right around 150 seats that may fill that spot but that remains to be seen.

Wow I was always more than convinced that Delta sooner or later would order the MAX. I would have expected mainly MAX8s but the 10 is great as well, also replacing part of the 757s and upgauging overall capacity.

I believe that engine MRO contracts with CFM will determine if this order goes through. I posted in the DL fleet thread how this opens up opportunities for DL buying used LEAP powered aircraft if the MRO contract allows.

This Leeham link is worth the read on DL's aircraft purchase strategy being tied to engine MRO deals:
https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/09/delta ... -revenues/

Based on how FULL my last few DL flights have been and how fares are stuck at liesure fare levels from what I've seen, DL must upgauge. I see a massive hand me down as every narrowbody that can be upgauged is then passed down to upgauge the category below.

I see DL buying a hundred an excercising at least 50 options.

Lightsaber

1337Delta764 wrote:

I just hope this is really true. This would be a sweet victory and a miracle for Boeing. It would break the Airbus walled garden that Delta has had for the past 10 years.

I’m not sure what Walled garden you are referring to. In the last 10 years, delta has taken delivery of 130 737-900ERs. It’s been a walled garden for about 3 years while Delta has had three different entry into service efforts with Airbus

DCA350 wrote:

Totally understandable.. the MAX10 should be a fine plane for the trunk domestic routes Delta currently flies the 757 on.. If they do proceed with the MAX order, I wonder will they convert some of their A321NEOs to the XLRs.. I'm surprised they still haven't jumped on board.. They need something to replace the international 757s

Do they though?? COVID has killed demand for most if not all thin TATL routes. And besides pre-pandemic didn't DL only have a handful (at most) TATL 757 routes left?? Certainly no more than like 5. If the need ever arouses, then they could very well use a 321neo right? I think it for sure has the legs and would no doubt be more fuel efficient. It'd probably give them a chance to reposition the 757s on more smaller domestic routes which they are probably more fuel efficient on, as they slowly draw down the 757 fleet through the decade.

But the MAX 10 certainly could fit... Very well it could supplement the 739ERs, and free up the early build A320s and perhaps the remaining originally-DL 757s. The 753s and the post NW 752s, as well as the Shanghai aircraft and some 752s delivered in the late 90s could stay around longer due to younger age but for the early-mid 90s delivered DL birds, they probably have 1 D check left and then to the boneyard.

Though something has crossed my mind. Eventually DL would draw down its 757 fleet and by 2030 it may be like half what it is now (or even less). Do you think that the NBA is going to switch to 321neos from the 757s as parts become harder to come by?? Just curious...

Delta doesn’t have the rights to overhaul the LEAP. That’s what stopped the order last time.

CFM isn’t in any rush to license out overhaul on the LEAP.

Are the DL 321NEOs being delivered with auxillary fuel tanks unlike their CEOs?

JohanTally wrote:

Are the DL 321NEOs being delivered with auxillary fuel tanks unlike their CEOs?

Yes. One ACT on each NEO.

NLINK wrote:

Hopefully it just a negotiating tactic as I would hate to see the MAX in the DL fleet as a shareholder. Way to many negatives attached to the plane with its history.

The majority of the flying public have no clue what they're flying on, and they don't care. The MAX will suit Delta and its passengers just fine.
By the time these aircraft are delivered to Delta, most Americans would've already forgotten the MAX debacle.

2eng2efficient wrote:

All those ATL-Florida trunk routes would do well on the MAX10. I was on a 75D the other day and the plane felt tired.

Same age as the existing A320's that these MAX'S should also replace. The 75D's are not the only DL NB fleets that contain "tired" members from the days of too much flannel.

JayinKitsap wrote:

This makes good sense, the rep of the 737 is it is more efficient than the A320, but has less capability. The -10 will be a great people mover for the <2,000 nm routes. Delta will still need A321's to do its NB routes that are 2,500 nm and above with a similar pax load.

There are currently two major pilot pools for Delta NB fleet, bringing in these -10's to replace older 737's retiring keeps the pool size similar. The 350 A320/A321 and 250 B737 fleets give the opportunity to select the best planes for the missions. DL bought a lot of used 737's but with the recent jump in oil prices it makes more sense to do NEO/MAX at this point.

I feel at DL that the A220 fleet is more focused on replacing the MD & 717 fleets that are going away already. Will there be an A225 vs B737-7 competition at some point, it would be an order to watch.

The A320's should start leaving before any 738's do. Many are near 30 years old.

DLHAM wrote:

Wow I was always more than convinced that Delta sooner or later would order the MAX. I would have expected mainly MAX8s but the 10 is great as well, also replacing part of the 757s and upgauging overall capacity.

Replacing A320's also I would hope.

This aircraft if it doesn’t have an forward L-2 door is a great way to alienate the customers. If you have flown on a -9 you know how long it takes to or empty the cabin.

william wrote:

Amazing we have narrowbodies carrying the same amount as the WB 767-200 when it debuted. The math is easy to figure out.

The math is easy to figure out, what isn't so easy is understanding how in 40 years passenger comfort has gone downhill when it should have improved.

1337Delta764 wrote:

I just hope this is really true. This would be a sweet victory and a miracle for Boeing. It would break the Airbus walled garden that Delta has had for the past 10 years.

Which is exactly why I hope it doesn’t happen. Boeing has fumbled every single ball they’ve been handed for over a decade, from military to space to civil aviation. They don’t deserve anyone’s orders. The fact that they’re basically peddling a twin-engine 707 in 2022 is just hilarious to me.

Can’t say I’m surprised to see DL order the MAX-10, but I was expecting to see a MAX-8 order first. It’ll be great to see the MAX-10 in DL colors!

NW747-400 wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

Are the DL 321NEOs being delivered with auxillary fuel tanks unlike their CEOs?

Yes. One ACT on each NEO.

That should be sufficient for the longest DL Transcon flights?

JohanTally wrote:

NW747-400 wrote:

JohanTally wrote:

Are the DL 321NEOs being delivered with auxillary fuel tanks unlike their CEOs?

Yes. One ACT on each NEO.

That should be sufficient for the longest DL Transcon flights?

At MTOW of 93,5t, and max fuel, it should allow their A321NEO's to carry a 21t payload 3,200Nm still air - way more than needed for any transcon.

https://www.airbus.com/en/airport-opera ... cteristics

Rgds

Velocirapture wrote:

JayinKitsap wrote:

This makes good sense, the rep of the 737 is it is more efficient than the A320, but has less capability.

How is a 737 less capable than the A320? The most direct comparison would be a 737-800 and I’ve seen data for one of DL’s competitors that the -800 burns less fuel (737NG vs. A320CEO) while carrying more people on any length trip. That doesn’t seem less capable to me.

I was thinking the A320 family, specifically the A321 being more capable than the 737-10. The -7 and -8 are taking a strong majority of the orders in their size against the A320 family. The -9ER does not match up well against the A321 in terms of range, but if within its range is more efficient. The -10 will be the same, great up to about 80% of the A321 range.

This may be DL wanting more efficient engines in a hurry, there may be a several year difference in delivery time.

I read that Boeing has over 350 produced but not delivered MAXs. Are there still many white tails left? Could DL be interested in those? If DL does indeed order the MAX, that, combined with their existing order book from other carriers, will mean that Boeing would probably increase their production rate beyond the 47 per month that they’re already projecting by the end of 2023.

On a side note: I flew on a UA MAX 9 last week. It was the nicest, most modern and advanced 737 that I’ve been on. The takeoff was smooth and the LEAP engines sounded like a GE90. Now that they’ve got the kinks worked out, I think its popularity among airlines worldwide will continue to increase. I think it would be a great addition to DL’s fleet.

Iloveboeing wrote:

I read that Boeing has over 350 produced but not delivered MAXs. Are there still many white tails left? Could DL be interested in those? If DL does indeed order the MAX, that, combined with their existing order book from other carriers, will mean that Boeing would probably increase their production rate beyond the 47 per month that they’re already projecting by the end of 2023.

On a side note: I flew on a UA MAX 9 last week. It was the nicest, most modern and advanced 737 that I’ve been on. The takeoff was smooth and the LEAP engines sounded like a GE90. Now that they’ve got the kinks worked out, I think its popularity among airlines worldwide will continue to increase. I think it would be a great addition to DL’s fleet.

The need is not now... Future replacement of retiring fleet types. We've seen this before... They provided this pricing, we want this... It's on Boeing to lose this order if they don't come in properly. Boeing is bleeding in the red, while Airbus is low balling, cause they have positive and deliverable orders nationwide. Should we look at this as who will do better for me, as Delta has played the past 12+ years?

And as other's above mentioned... MRO... They just don't want a Plane Type but an Engine Contract tied into the deal!

It's not UA or AA where you know they'll just go Boeing... Historically, they've always played the game...

Delta has been good at getting cheap used leases on the market to help their current needs. Again, there is major investment in purchase/refurbishment, cause these used aircraft are no where close to Delta standards... But they are picking them off on the 2nd Market...

Just food for thought...(Not against any MAX order)...

1337Delta764 wrote:

I just hope this is really true. This would be a sweet victory and a miracle for Boeing. It would break the Airbus walled garden that Delta has had for the past 10 years.

I remember there was a lot of bad blood between the two companies that led to the Airbus bias at Delta. Looks like they're on their way to patch things up.

ScottB wrote:

JayinKitsap wrote:

This makes good sense, the rep of the 737 is it is more efficient than the A320, but has less capability. The -10 will be a great people mover for the <2,000 nm routes. Delta will still need A321's to do its NB routes that are 2,500 nm and above with a similar pax load.

I think there are very few narrowbody routes in the Delta network which will require the range of an A321neo over a MAX-10. Maybe things like ATL-ANC or some of the thin transatlantic routes operated by 757s, although the MAX-10 could probably handle BOS to LIS/Ireland/U.K.

It's not about range. Doesn't DL carry a decent amount of cargo? Can a Max-10 carry the same payload as the A321neo on delta's route profiles? They are going to need both the Max-10 and A321neo to replace the 752/753.

tvarad wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

I just hope this is really true. This would be a sweet victory and a miracle for Boeing. It would break the Airbus walled garden that Delta has had for the past 10 years.

I remember there was a lot of bad blood between the two companies that led to the Airbus bias at Delta. Looks like they're on their way to patch things up.

What bad blood?

It’s all about the money. What was standing between Boeing and Delta’s money?

Gotta remember the day that Delta signed and took delivery of their first A321ceo in Hamburg, they were also getting a 739ER delivered from Renton at the same time. Now it'll likely be a reverse action.

MAX10s make sense, there is likely delivery slots available to help compliment A321neo deliveries. We all know DL needs to upgauge and continue to grow domestically, along with replacing A320s that will need to be phased out.

Still isn't a direct '757 replacement' order, but they still got time on that.

Lootess wrote:

Gotta remember the day that Delta signed and took delivery of their first A321ceo in Hamburg, they were also getting a 739ER delivered from Renton at the same time. Now it'll likely be a reverse action.

MAX10s make sense, there is likely delivery slots available to help compliment A321neo deliveries. We all know DL needs to upgauge and continue to grow domestically, along with replacing A320s that will need to be phased out.

Still isn't a direct '757 replacement' order, but they still got time on that.

Agree on most of it, but 757... There is no replacement... Are we talking AXLR? But isn't that a hit on capacity with the fuel tanks? What about the 767 size craft? We can all agree on ETOPS... But UA and DL luv their 757-300...

Gross. I really hate to see this; was so nice having the option of a US3 carrier without the need to worry about being placed on a -MAX.

Then again, we've done the "Delta about to place a massive MAX order!" dance nearly every quarter of the last 3yrs, so there's that....

tvarad wrote:

I remember there was a lot of bad blood between the two companies that led to the Airbus bias at Delta.

Publicly held corporations are not junior high schoolgirls... they don't operate via grudges and emotions, it's simply a matter of who's willing to spend what money when.

Review AA587 vis-a-vis Airbus, for the quintessential example thereof.